Post reblogged from Hall Joys with 11 notes
Ευσεβείς- The Pious: On the Question and Errors of Ritual Garb
While it is less of a pressing issue for the integrity of Hellenist religiosity than neopaganization, the problem of “ritual garb” in Hellenism (particularly so in the US), is one that needs addressing.
Rather than drawing out the argument, I will place my stance and justification right off at…
I’m curious about your insistence on the clothing being white? What are your sources for this? I’m merely interested…
Okay, so, you aren’t “Reconstructionist but kept an eye on Reconstructionist patterns”. What does that mean? Which Reconstructionist religion? Cause, well, I hate to tell you but we are not all the same religion, or race, or culture. You don’t know anything about Hellenism and yet you feel the need to add your unnecessary opinion on what Hellenists in Greece might choose to wear during worship? Why? What Pagan community? There is no “Pagan Community”. Again, I am utterly LOATHE to say it but you are coming from an incredibly biassed place that does not take into account indigenous religion native to their own countries and cultures. Your point of view is incredibly ethnocentric.
If you don’t know anything about modern Hellenistic practices, why are you responding in such an accusatory and ethnocentric manner? Do you not think actual Hellenists might have thought of these things you listed and questioned before? Do you know anything about Reconstructionism? Do you know anything about Greek history any better than a Greek Hellenist might? Because, despite your claim of “keeping an eye on ‘Reconstructionist patterns’”, you don’t seem to know really anything about Hellenism or that there are more than one kind of Recon.
There was no claim of a “one and true way”, but again this is coming from a highly ethnocentric stance of modern American NeoPaganism which is not equivalent to indigenous Reconstructionist religion and cannot be compared. What are you even asking? There are many sources for the ideas of purity and cleanliness within Greek Hellenistic culture, but I am not going to give them to you here. I am not Greek Hellenist…but I don’t see why you seem offended by the suggestion that wearing what appears to be role play or cosplay outfitting would be inappropriate to a Reconstructionist. If you are not part of a Reconstructionist faith or culture, this is not for you to question. Period. Not in such an accusatory manner at any rate.
Eusebeis’ opinion on the manner is barely a “hard stance” on the matter of dressing up for ritual. It is certainly more conservative and “every day” than that of American NeoPaganism but it’s a very popular and generic outlook within Reconstructionist religion. You need to step back from letting your biassed idea of what “Paganism” is colour your view of what Reconstructionists practicing their indigenous religions view and believe before you question it.
You make a lot of assumptions about me here, which are baseless and really not worth getting into.
I’ve decided that I would like to point a few things out though.
First… Given that I was responding to an individual who writes on reconstructing Ancient Greek practices and was attempting to start a conversation with this individual on the same… I assumed my followers were clever enough to figure out what I meant by ‘reconstructionist’, both in reference to myself… in saying that I am not a reconstructionist… and in that I was aware of trends in reconstructionism.
Second… Reconstructionists, no matter their subject/focus, are not in any way the only individuals who study history, religion, society, or culture… and use that study in their daily lives or religious paths. Also not claiming the title of a reconstructionist of any religion, culture, or history doesn’t automatically mean the individual is completely ignorant or unaware. To imply otherwise, or make assumptions that imply otherwise, is somewhat ridiculous.
Third… There is actually such a thing as modern pagan community. To be clear, what I mean by the pagan ‘community’ is an interfaith collection of paths and groups. Not a single homogenized group. In this instance I am referring to the modern pagan community to be found on the internet.
And finally… The post that you responded to had two main purposes.
I also was using the post first written by Eusebeis in an attempt to start a conversation about a particular idea and how it affected the pagan community whether they are reconstructionists or not. And whatever their area of focus is.
Link reblogged from Ευσεβείς- The Pious with 11 notes
While it is less of a pressing issue for the integrity of Hellenist religiosity than neopaganization, the problem of “ritual garb” in Hellenism (particularly so in the US), is one that needs addressing.
Rather than drawing out the argument, I will place my stance and justification right off at…
I’m curious about your insistence on the clothing being white? What are your sources for this? I’m merely interested… especially since honest white would be rather valuable for the time. That and considering the love of color in most of the ancient world, Greece included, just seems to conflict a bit with the idea of merely wearing your freshly washed every day clothing.
All I really want to add to the conversation for the moment, is the idea of the vast differences in religion and society today.
I don’t consider myself a reconstructionist, but I’ve kept an eye on reconstructionist patterns and ideas.
I would agree that the average person likely would’ve worn their finest freshly washed clothing to festivals and rituals and whatnot, the technical details of these outfits would rely heavily on monetary and social status, of course… and I agree that silly costumes could potentially straddle the line of impiety.
But I have to say that I doubt very much that what you wear to ritual is that big of an issue if you are sincere… if you are mocking, obviously this is a different matter than if you are simply ignorant or honestly attempting to present yourself well.
Today we put a very high premium on appearance and dress in all situations, as a culture. Even ignoring ancient concepts that parallel this, the idea is fairly simple…
We as modern individuals judge one another and ourselves based on our appearances and in general people attempt to present a pleasing appearance at ritual or worship…
Certainly cleanliness is a pretty widely accepted standard… but unless you are nude clothing choices to the modern mind will be highly prioritized.
I don’t understand the benefit of discarding our social/cultural habits and personal preferences in regard to ritual/ceremonial wear… I think it would be far more beneficial for todays pagan community, if people were to combine what they know and choose of their own ways and culture with that which they have reconstructed and chosen to incorporate of their chosen history and path.
The other obvious issue with this is at what point in history you’re attempting to recreate… also what cult? What gods? Where were they worshipped? Does one province more jive with your beliefs than another? They’ll likely have different clothing preferences and habits. What if you can’t recreate it? And again, this could be an issue if your practice spans areas with vastly different ideas of fashion/clothing practices… where do you choose from? Is it impious also then to choose your favorites? Is it wrong to mix them rather than staying as close to the original as we know it ideal?
This is a far more complex topic then can be broken down in a short list of simple rules on clothing. And declaring people impious or worse for not following one flavor of practice when it comes to fashion in religion, is just as bad as any other decree of a one and true way. If not worse, as I deem it a rather frivolous topic to make such a high and hard stance on.
